What do you believe with regard to how much our free will vs. pre-determination affects our outcomes, affects whether we can make our opportunities by exercising our free will, and thus success, wealth, and abundance (or anything else that people want and pursue) is equally available to all?
Einstein was actually very skeptical of the notion of free will. In his famous paper simply titled “On Free Will”, he suggests that the moon would think it had free will to go around the Earth if it had consciousness, Similarly (I quote) “So would a being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will”.
I’m inclined to agree with Einstein.
I think that the ego would love to believe that we have 100% free will, but empirical evidence suggests pre-determination exists and affects our outcomes.
I wonder how many of you have experienced people/clients/yourself who, although they/you have cleaned up their subconscious tremendously, dealt with their psychodynamics, developed great skill and acumen in their field, applied themselves appropriately and consistently, still do not achieve the ease and success that others do. This suggests that pre-determination exists and is a serious factor to reckon with. By acknowledging this factor, one can better understand and accept the outcomes they experience while being candidly truthful with themselves as to the degree that they have exercised free will, behaved maturely, intelligently, consistently, and effectively in their efforts to achieve something.
I see so many people beating themselves up over this: thinking that they’re not doing enough, not doing it right, don’t know enough, not controlling their thoughts enough for the law of attraction to work for them, etc. While it’s true that many of these people have internal conflicts, limiting beliefs, and other internal negativity that does affect their outcomes, what about those that have resolved all of this?
In my work I provide the opportunity for clients to resolve these things. We uncover conflicting beliefs and agendas, limiting beliefs, fears, values, etc.; we eliminate or resolve these and then create new neural pathways for constructive beliefs that are in alignment with their values and intentions.Certainly they will experience greater freedom, clarity, and happiness if they do resolve these things however, there is a TON of marketing material that implies that success, achievement, wealth, and abundance will be equally available to all once you do resolve these things. I am questioning whether this is objectively true. I think that the ego, and those marketing in this way, would love to believe that we have 100% free will, but empirical evidence suggests pre-determination exists and affects our outcomes.
What are your thoughts? Please leave a comment. I’d love to see a rich discussion develop here about this.
Kamila, Great Post!
I love the Einstein info and I think it is definitely appropriate for this conversation. I agree with what you propose to a degree. I agree that sure we are born in a certain body, from certain parents, families, we are born in certain towns, countries, with differenet economic cicumstances, physical capabilities, and envrionments. Of course those have an effect on our lives like any other influence would. However, how do we account for what people are able to do on The Biggest Loser, for example? What about the 65 year old woman who has never done any sports in her life but decides to become a mountain climber, jump out of airplanes and do triathalons? What about a champion wrestler who has no legs? How do we account for Helen Keller? Wouldn’t it seem that her life was predetermined to go in a certain direction? I think so but it SURELY DID NOT. So, what is the difference? I think its the choices that we make once we realize the power of Free Will that we DO have, and the conscious never ending effort to grow, expand and become more than what we currently are because then the strength and power of Free Will grows with the level of our Consciousness. More becomes available to us as we expand who we are. I believe in cause and effect and I write more about that here: http://matthewdavidogrady.com/2009/11/05/cause-and-effect/ I am also in the process of uploading a new download entitled: The Power of Choice which will be able to be found here: http://matthewdavidogrady.com/products/
OK, enough with the self promotion! I think you bring up a great point, but Albert, we are not the Moon, nore do we have the real wherewithall to imagine being the Moon, however, we can imagine being more efficient, more loving, more assertive, more compassionate, more forgiving, more grateful, more focused, more abundant, etc. if we can dream it we can achieve it and it ALL has to do with focus, choices, and faith in my opinion. As far as the people who have ‘resolved all of this’, I would really like to meet them and bow down to them for the work they have done! I have never met anyone who has resolved ALL of their inner issues. However, I work on my Self everyday and I know dozens if not 100’s of other people who do the same thing but none of us is a finished product we aim at something higher, something more and believe we are good just as we are but we want to give more and be more and if we are still alive, I believe we have the opportunity to grow and become more than who we are through persistence, gratitude, and focusing our attention on beauty, love and Truth. Kamila, I hope to hear what you think of my response. Thanks, Matthew David O’Grady
http://www.matthewdavidogrady.com
I think from a cumulative approach free will is present. Yet so many factors that make up our journey through life that it appears we are most definitely influenced by genetics, external factors.I associate free will with choices. From this example you have choices within your own mind. Yes it appears that others are pulling my strings but I ultimately have the choices as to what I allow into my mind and register it as something to be used to help me or just let the thought evaporate. God did not make us robots to just follow. Yes man has atempted to control every aspect of others. However no matter what others think that they are controlling you. You ultimately have the choice of thoughts. These thoughts become your perception. Your perceptions become your reality. Is this free will or a set of conclusions that you really had no choice but too come to a conclusion that others have set out for you to attain. I imagine from God on down to us we are in existence by the grace of God. Does this mean we really don’t have free will. Maybe, but every single individual has a right to their own individual thoughts inspite of external influence.It is an interesting thought…
Much like the old Nature vs. Nurture discussion, I find myself on the side of “both.” We have “influence” more than we have “control” in anything.
Moreover, I’ve found that even when people genuinely feel or think they’ve “resolved all of this” they’ve usually only resolved it in certain aspects of their Selves, and/or at certain Stages of each of them.
The “marketing” materials, pushing for singular solutions and Guru-led, narcissistic “my way to enlightenment” processes, will always leave most people “failing” to inhabit another person’s life, values, aspirations, etc. This doesn’t mean they were predetermined to not attain their own lives, just that they are wasting their time trying to attain someone else’s.
A total Congruency of Resolution in all aspects of Self, and in the Organizational Structure of all informational processing (from thought to emotion to intuitive) is exceptionally rare. And in those few who have attained it, a profound acceptance of what IS precludes being “upset” by what isn’t.
Frustration and disappointment are always a function of the chasm between how things are, and how we “want them to be,” and how we perceive and process that chasm.
I enjoyed reading this message Kamilia and appreciate your ability to communicate a topic which is somewhat controversial in the world of development. I tend to believe that our life is neither black nor white, but rather gray in many of the philosophies which have been handed to all of us over the course of time. My rationale behind this concept is that I believe philosophy is based based on interpretation and the perspective of the individual.
With this being said, I believe that pre-determination is something that we cannot neglect or overlook. We are our foundation, which leads me to believe there are certain beliefs that are pre-determined until we gain the confidence to break the cycle we were handed from our ancestors. For example, let’s assume that someone is “pre-determined” to be obese because his/her parents are obese and their parents were obese as well. There comes a time when this individual MUST exhibit free will or this vicious cycle of obesity will continue and furthermore, obesity is not genetically oriented, but rather something that is part of our learned behaviors–epigentics.
I could discuss this concept in much greater detail, but for the purposes of this blog I am going to state that we do not want to live a pre-determined life, nor do we want to live completely free-willed. When living in the gray we will be able to use our foundation which is pre-determined and then make the choices as to what resonates and what needs to be left behind which is FREE WILL…
What a juicy topic. I don’t know if I want to bite into it without having some time to go about it. But I’ll make an attempt.
First of all, I think that this question really needs to be viewed from a much larger perspective and in order to do so, are we going to limit the question to this lifetime only or do you believe that this is the only lifetime you have ? And then once you answer that, if you’re someone who knows that there is more than one lifetime, then you need to look at the question of “just who is it that is imposing a time limit on our growth?
Your article states; “although they/you have cleaned up their subconscious tremendously …. still do not achieve the ease and success that others do”. Who are these “others” that people are comparing themselves to? Are these “others” all of the “A” group of self help guru’s that have “made it”? Humanity (but I think our country especially) has this thing about comparing ourselves to others and if “they” have something I want or have achieved something I haven’t, they must be _______. And vice versa. If so and so doesn’t have what I have or they haven’t achieved what I have, then they must be¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬_______.
This is what bugs me so much about the Secret. Through this lens everything is made to look so “easy” and if you haven’t gotten “it” by now then you must be ______. This to me is part of the shaming that goes on the whole personal growth field.
I realize that the personal growth field doesn’t intend to be shaming but if you think about it, in a culture that is so about having everything now, who is going to want to buy a personal growth program that doesn’t work Now or soon? And how do the people selling these programs do it? They have fantastic results to back up their “claims”. The shaming I speak of is what occurs when you pay $X,XXX for the program, do the program and it doesn’t work for you. Or it works for a week and then you go back to your old patterns. You start to ask yourself well if “they” (the people on the screen) were able to do “it” why couldn’t I? I must really be messed up. Of course there are people that have achieved great results from the programs but how many follow up testimonials have you ever seen for 6 months later or so in order to follow the progress. The people that have developed these programs have either found something that works for them because they followed their intuitive nature, trusted themselves and took personal responsibility, thus changing or they achieved some results, had/have the charisma and the drive to put the program out into the world and then are now selling it with conviction and with testimonials of course.
So getting back to your question: Are our lives ones of “free will” or are they “pre-determined”? To that I would have to say yes, absolutely.
Actually I’ll clarify that a bit.
I believe that all of us navigate through our lives with the devices of our beliefs, our attitudes, our decisions and our choices. Our decisions and choices being heavily influenced by our beliefs and attitudes.
With that said I see the free will in our lives coming directly from our decisions and choices. Every single day we make hundreds if not thousands of choices and decisions. If you personally reflect on the many choices and decisions you’ve made in your lifetime, in being truthful to yourself you’d have to agree that it you had a made an alternative choice or decision, your life would have taken a very different path. A path that you could only imagine. If I were to take Einstein’s idea of “pre-determined”, I would imagine that he meant that our choice was already determined for us but he doesn’t, at least in your article, disclose why it’s pre-determined.
Our choices and decisions are pre-determined by our attitudes and beliefs. A key factor here though is that choice is the only thing that trumps attitudes, decisions and above all beliefs.
So, why do we humans (generally speaking –because there are obviously those who do break free of what would otherwise be described as “pre-determined) keep doing the pre-determined thing? Because most people never stop to truly dissect their beliefs. To really get digging, weeding out the limiting beliefs and replacing them with more empowering ones. And then, taking the new beliefs and following them up with actions that convey the new belief. I believe that is then that our subconscious will truly change. It is then that our reality will reflect more of the true “free will” you mention. This issue is so deep and there is so much more to say on the subject but I truly believe that true “free will” is what we are here to unravel and to “know” that we have.
Anyway, thanks for asking the question Kamila. I’m sorry if I got a little too pedantic.
Happy New Year
Phil
Hi Phil,
I thoroughly enjoyed your response (not too pedantic for me) and could write a response twice as long if I were to respond point-by-point.
Instead, I’ll just respond to your last paragraph which sums up my own perspective rather well. I don’t think it’s pre-determination VS. free will; I think it’s both and they interact with each other in obvious as well as highly subtle ways. I suspect that it’s rather complex- the ways they interact; and I wish someone would reveal that equation! I hope we’re right as my work and my life is built upon these beliefs. As I work with clients on identifying their beliefs, their conflicting beliefs, their limiting beliefs, and the ways that their behaviors are not aligned with their values, and then go on to resolve all of the aforementioned, replace beliefs, create new neural pathways for the new behaviors to form new, positive, intentional patterns, I see people transform before my eyes into happier freer beings. It’s an honor and a thrill to witness and participate in the process. Ultimately, my purpose and my mission is to facilitate greater and greater degrees of freedom for people so they may live their most authentic life and with as much joy, lightness, and delight as possible.
Hi Jared,
Thanks so much for weighing in. You and I seem to be on the same page. Please see my reply to Phil above. I am so curious about the way the two interrelate. If you come across writings about this interrelation, I’d love to have references or links to them.
Kamila
Hi Ian,
So well put! I love the order in which the responses to my post came in as they further the discussion in the ways I would have had I been writing a longer piece!
You and I share a very similar view of each topic we’ve ever discussed!
I have concerns about how to ethically market our services effectively. I’ve gotten what I consider to be the equivalent of an MBA in Marketing for the Information Age for Service Businesses with a minor in Heart-Centered Marketing and Authentic Branding. I’ve been studying and training the past 3 years with some of the “rockstars” in these fields and there seems to be a consensus to market results which, as Phil pointed out, are going to vary from person to person. Do we have fine print at the bottom of our marketing materials like pharmaceuticals stating that “your results may vary”?
always a pleasure dialoging with you.
Kamila
Thanks so much Ron for your reply.
I just love this. I hope the discussion continues.
Kamila
Hi Matt,
Thanks for your reply. I finally found it in Spam comments- perhaps b/c you included 2 links.
I agree completely with “More becomes available to us as we expand who we are.” This bears out in my own experience! Amen for that- it means the possibilities are infinite! Woo Hoo!
BTW, I must clarify that I did not mean those people had resolved absolutely everything- I agree that such folks don’t exist…….except as Bodhisattvas. I was referring to people that have worked diligently and earnestly on their stuff and have resolved A LOT of it such that they experience many Essential states of being w/o contriving to do so. AND YET, they may not have ideal circumstances in their lives and they may not be able to arrange their life circumstances as they might prefer. While they may experience tremendous inner freedom and this is reflected in the way they respond to circumstances and events, there may be some external limiting forces. Is this their dharma, is this pre-determination, is this luck, or????